Election, Reprobation, as taught in Church History.

[Iconoclast]

Just a note, so far I have escaped blatant ad hom fallacy attacks from you but I notice you use them on others. My response to such is to make use of the ignore function.

To the above quote, the insistence that freewill does not exist serves to prove that it does, since it is an opinion freely held with no evidence.

Scriptural Evidence of the Dimension of Freewill:

Isa 66:1-4 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest? (2) For all those things My hand has made, And all those things exist," Says the LORD. "But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, And who trembles at My word. (3) "He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog's neck; He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine's blood; He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol. Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, (4) So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

Choice does not mean the will is free. scripture says men have self-will, but it is not free. it is bound by their nature.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Stumpmaster,


[Foreknowledge then Predestination to conformity to the image of Christ is the Scriptural order to be remembered.

God's Foreknowledge of whosover will believe and receive Christ by faith is as intimate as it gets. They are foreknown to God as the future inhabitants of heaven]


No...God does not say anywhere that He knows of ANY who will believe and receive.

This is false. No one believes unless and until God regenerates them.EPH2:1-3
God elected men dead in sin and set His love and grace upon them2tim.1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Enoch111]

This is false. No one believes unless and until God regenerates them.EPH2:1-3

Regeneration cannot PRECEDE faith. That is false. It is only those who receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who can be regenerated by the Spirit. And it is only those who repent and believe who receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

Regeneration cannot PRECEDE faith. That is false. It is only those who receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who can be regenerated by the Spirit. And it is only those who repent and believe who receive the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration, repentance and faith happen at one point in time.it is simeltaneous
Sorry but dead men do not have life, do not have faith that saves, cannot understand scripture.1cor2:14, romans 8:7

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Iconoclast]

Enoch111,

[Election cannot possibly be for salvation, since God commands all men everywhere to repent. Which means that God desires the salvation of all human beings.]

Election unto salvation is totally biblical. There will not be one non elect person in Heaven

We are elected to be in saving Union with Christ before the world was eph1:3-14
That men are commanded to repent has no bearing on God's decree to elect a multitude of persons.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Nothing is outside of omniscience,however;
If you study biblical foreknowledge you will see it is quite specific and about PERSONS ,NOT EVENTS.

Obviously, as the word itself states, omniscience is knowledge of ALL THINGS, be they people, events, things above, below, infront, behind, left, right, and centre, be they material or abstract, God knows ALL THINGS, or else he isn't God.

Col 1:17 And he is before ALL THINGS, and by him ALL THINGS consist.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Choice does not mean the will is free. scripture says men have self-will, but it is not free. it is bound by their nature.

The point is that God has made us capable of exercising freewill. The fact that God has predetermined our features and the features of our habitat does not exclude the dimension of freewill that He has predetermined us to have so that our love for Him will be sincere in response to His love for us. We definitely have options and the ability to exercise our own will because of the wonderful way God has made us. The nation of Israel was led away captive because they chose to oppose God's Will, not because He predetermined them to.

Psa 139:14-16 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. (15) My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. (16) Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

 

[Iconoclast]

The point is that God has made us capable of exercising freewill. The fact that God has predetermined our features and the features of our habitat does not exclude the dimension of freewill that He has predetermined us to have so that our love for Him will be sincere in response to His love for us. We definitely have options and the ability to exercise our own will because of the wonderful way God has made us. The nation of Israel was led away captive because they chose to oppose God's Will, not because He predetermined them to.

Psa 139:14-16 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. (15) My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. (16) Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

I do not use carnal philosophy to determine what is biblical truth.
That men choose sin and rebellion is because they are dead sinners, not because their will is free.
It does not exist in the real world. It is a philosophy...not a truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

No one really addressed the posted links, but instead divert to other issues.
I do not believe that they can answer, but only divert.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 6:35-40 KJV
35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:28-33 KJV
28) Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29) The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30) Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Until the cross, the Father drew people to Jesus. After the cross, Jesus draws all men to Himself.

Matthew 28:18-19 KJV
18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jesus came to do the Father's will, and submitted Himself accordingly. Now authority is given Him. Before, it was the Father's will to draw certain ones to Jesus. Now, Jesus draws all men to Himself.

What does He say? "All authority is given me. So go and make disciples of all nations."

Much love!

All the Father gives shall come.
No man can come unless the Father draws them.
Jumping ahead 6 chapters is not changing this passage.
The giving by the Father to the Son took place before the world was.No change of plan or Covenat salvation.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I do not use carnal philosophy to determine what is biblical truth.
That men choose sin and rebellion is because they are dead sinners, not because their will is free.
It does not exist in the real world. It is a philosophy...not a truth.

I don't allow fallacies of logic to go unchallenged, particularly when they manifest as unqualified assertions which have no basis in fact, such as yours quoted above, which Scripture refutes, proving your logic to be flawed.

Jas 1:13-15 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. (14) But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. (15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't allow fallacies of logic to go unchallenged, particularly when they manifest as unqualified assertions which have no basis in fact, such as yours quoted above, which Scripture refutes, proving your logic to be flawed.

Jas 1:13-15 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. (14) But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. (15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

If scripture refuted.it,you would show perhaps one verse that mentions free will of man.Being it does not exist of course, scripture is silent on it but speaks of men being bound by sin,jn8.unable, and unwilling to come to Jesus until eph2:4...but God

 

[Renniks]

No...it is speaking of All the elect sheep,for all time;
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.


38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It's obvious: see where he changes from past tense to present? From past saints he was faithful too, to what is promised to us?

and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

(Past tense)

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
(Present tense.)

 

[Stumpmaster]

If scripture refuted.it,you would show perhaps one verse that mentions free will of man.Being it does not exist of course, scripture is silent on it but speaks of men being bound by sin,jn8.unable, and unwilling to come to Jesus until eph2:4...but God

Adam and Eve disobeyed God's instructions of their own free will.

 

[Iconoclast]

Adam and Eve disobeyed God's instructions of their own free will.

And what verse tells us it was their own "free will". I do not recall that language being used.

 

[Iconoclast]

It's obvious: see where he changes from past tense to present? From past saints he was faithful too, to what is promised to us?

and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

(Past tense)

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
(Present tense.)

I do not see what point you are making. Could you clarify what you mean?

 

[Iconoclast]

Would anyone attempt to go over line by line what these links offered and show what was not correct?

 

[Stumpmaster]

And what verse tells us it was their own "free will". I do not recall that language being used.

Freewill is the term used to identify the examples where the dimension of human will is in evidence in the various choices regarding available options. You won't find the word BIBLE in the BIBLE either, but it is the term we use to identify the collected writings it contains.

Rom 5:12-21

• Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
• (15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded unto many.
• (16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
• (17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
• (18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
• (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (21) That as sin has reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

THE ACT OF FREEWILL IDENTIFIED IN THE BIBLE:

Rom 6:16 Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Renniks]

I do not see what point you are making. Could you clarify what you mean?

It's not about some people being selected for salvation.
It's a promise that God will be faithful to us because he was faithful to Israel and the OT saints

 

[Iconoclast]

It's not about some people being selected for salvation.
It's a promise that God will be faithful to us because he was faithful to Israel and the OT saints

Hello Renniks,
The blessing of election is that without it, no one would be saved at all.
The fall into sin and death has left all men ever born like this description in eph2:12
1]That at that time ye were without Christ,
2]being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
3]and strangers from the covenants of promise,
4]having no hope,
5]and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

This doctrine is a great comfort to the church. It is not designed to cause division, but rather to promote unity among the saints.