Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?

[Reggie Belafonte]

Have you ever watched Dr Who, he has been out their and I do not recall him ever going to Heaven.;)

Heaven is not a place as such, we see were Jesus Christ is talking to Nathaniel and their you see it explained in how it works.
Jesus said to Nathaniel what he will see. not to mention St Stephen seen it.
I suspect St Stephen is Nathaniel, as he is the only one mentioned who was full of the Holy Spirit, bar Mary.

It is the will that what is done in Heaven is done hear on Earth, Kingdom of God ! what is the reason for the Kingdom of God ? so that you will have life in abundance and not wast it on delusional nonsense.

One may have a million dollars but are they satisfied ? never ! 10 million 100 million never ! for they are barking up the wrong tree. that's not what life is about at all. that is just like a dog that is chasing it's tail. so just one position that's of what people do that is possessed, they are possessed of something that is of delusions.

Jesus at the Well talks to a woman about a Water ?

 

[Curtis]

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Why did Paul write that "death reigned from Adam to Moses"? Why did "death" only reign from Adam to Moses? What broke the reign of death?

That passage is saying clearly that there was no imputation of sin to anyone during the time between Adam and Moses, because the law had not been given yet.

There was obviously death due to the effect of sin during that time span, , but their sins not imputed to them.

That passage does not hint at proving soul sleep.

 

[quietthinker]

That passage is saying clearly that there was no imputation of sin to anyone during the time between Adam and Moses, because the law had not been given yet.

There was obviously death due to the effect of sin during that time span, , but their sins not imputed to them.

That passage does not hint at proving soul sleep.

Death is the result of sin! and sin not imputed....hmmm, that is surely imaginative

 

[Enoch111]

That passage is saying clearly that there was no imputation of sin to anyone during the time between Adam and Moses, because the law had not been given yet.

You are missing the meaning of that passage. What Paul was saying is that until the Law of Moses, specific sins could not be assigned to sinners. But that does not mean that the sinners were not held accountable. As a matter of fact the Flood of Noah's day clearly shows that every sinner and wicked person was held accountable for sinning. And the whole world perished.

 

[Enoch111]

That passage does not hint at proving soul sleep.

As to soul sleep, it is another nonsensical doctrine derived from misinterpreting the Bible. There are no souls six feet under.

 

[Curtis]

Death is the result of sin! and sin not imputed....hmmm, that is surely imaginative

Try actually reading the passage in question.

I’ll make it easy on you, here it is in modern English:

Rom 5:12 Sin came into the world through one man, and his sin brought death with it. As a result, death has spread to the whole human race because everyone has sinned.

Rom 5:13 There was sin in the world before the Law was given; but where there is no law, no account is kept of sins. GNB

Next version:

Rom 5:12 Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned, and so everyone must die.

Rom 5:13 Sin was in the world before the Law came. But no record of sin was kept, because there was no Law. CEV

Next version:

Rom 5:12 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned.

Rom 5:13 Certainly sin was in the world before the Law was given, but no record of sin is kept when there is no Law.ISV

COMMENTARY:

Until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law: We know that at the root of it all we are made sinners because of Adam and not because we break the law ourselves. We know this because sin and death were in the world before the Law was ever given.

i. The law was too late to prevent sin and death and it is too weak to save from sin and death.

b. Nevertheless death reigned: The total, merciless reign of death - even before the law was given at the time of Moses - proves that man was under sin before the law. Death reigned . . . even over those who had not sinned in the exact way Adam did, showing that the principle of sin was at work in every human.

FACT: the law, which was given to show men what sin IS, was not given until 430 years after Abraham.

The fact that sin reigned from Adam to Moses but was not IMPUTED to anyone, until the law was given to Moses, explains how Abraham slept with the maid and had a son out of wedlock, but it it was not called adultery or a sin.

Unlike king David. who committed adultery when he slept with Bathsheba, because he had the law of Moses to call it a sin and call it adultery, so that sin was IMPUTED unto him
.

 

[quietthinker]

As to soul sleep, it is another nonsensical doctrine derived from misinterpreting the Bible. There are no souls six feet under.

what do these souls that are elsewhere, consist of?

 

[quietthinker]

Try actually reading the passage in question.

I’ll make it easy on you, here it is in modern English:

Rom 5:12 Sin came into the world through one man, and his sin brought death with it. As a result, death has spread to the whole human race because everyone has sinned.

Rom 5:13 There was sin in the world before the Law was given; but where there is no law, no account is kept of sins. GNB

Next version:

Rom 5:12 Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned, and so everyone must die.

Rom 5:13 Sin was in the world before the Law came. But no record of sin was kept, because there was no Law. CEV

Next version:

Rom 5:12 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned.

Rom 5:13 Certainly sin was in the world before the Law was given, but no record of sin is kept when there is no Law.ISV

COMMENTARY:

Until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law: We know that at the root of it all we are made sinners because of Adam and not because we break the law ourselves. We know this because sin and death were in the world before the Law was ever given.

i. The law was too late to prevent sin and death and it is too weak to save from sin and death.

b. Nevertheless death reigned: The total, merciless reign of death - even before the law was given at the time of Moses - proves that man was under sin before the law. Death reigned . . . even over those who had not sinned in the exact way Adam did, showing that the principle of sin was at work in every human.

FACT: the law, which was given to show men what sin IS, was not given until 430 years after Abraham.

The fact that sin reigned from Adam to Moses but was not IMPUTED to anyone, until the law was given to Moses, explains how Abraham slept with the maid and had a son out of wedlock, but it it was not called adultery or a sin.

Unlike king David. who committed adultery when he slept with Bathsheba, because he had the law of Moses to call it a sin and call it adultery, so that sin was IMPUTED unto him
.

What you are concluding is nonsensical. I think you are trying to convince yourself.
Why present the Law if without it sin is not imputed? The Law showed the exceeding sinfulness of sin.

 

[Enoch111]

what do these souls that are elsewhere, consist of?

Souls are immaterial, and souls and spirits are always joined together (yet distinct from each other). The soul is the actual person minus the body (which is the repository of the soul and spirit). Upon death -- as we know from the Bible -- the soul departs or separates from the body, and either goes to Heaven (if redeemed by Christ) or goes to Hades if unsaved. Hades continues to be the abode of departed souls who are without Christ.

When we read of the resurrection of the daughter of Jairus by Christ, we also read that her spirit returned to her. The soul and spirit had departed for a short while during which she was dead. (I do not normally use the NASB, but I quote it here to avoid any misunderstanding).

New American Standard Bible (Luke 8:55)
And her spirit returned, and she got up immediately; and He [Christ] ordered that something be given her to eat.

The Lord Jesus Christ has full authority over all souls and spirits (as well as spirit beings). Therefore He also resurrected the widow's son in Nain, and then Lazarus in Bethany (who spent four days in Hades).

Until the resurrection of Christ both the righteous and unrighteous dead went to Hades (where Christ was for three days and three nights, during which His body was in the tomb). But after His resurrection, He took all the OT saints from Hades to the New Jerusalem in Heaven. And ever since, all those who are in Christ go to be with Him upon their deaths.

"Sleep" is a metaphor for the death of a saint, as Christ explained to His disciples when He told them that Lazarus was "sleeping". They took that literally and then He clarified it.

 

[Taken]

Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?
OP ^

Where?
First begin with WHAT is Heaven.
In the "beginning", we learn there is a place called Heaven.
It is Separated (by Water) from a place called Earth, which IS, Dry land.
(We are given knowledge, information, bit by bit).
Later we learn Earth is the Habitat (estate) established for beings (called man, animals, creepy crawling things, plants, trees)...
And Heaven is Gods Throne, the established Habitat (estate) of God, and His Holy Angels (faithful servants of God).

Later we learn...Earth has Levels (so to speak)...
a surface of dust, hills, vallies, air.
a crust of dirt, plates, minerals, ores,etc.
and
a core, of deep underground. (Unable of man by his own power to enter or leave).

Later we learn. Heaven has Levels (so to speak)...
The Highest...heard about long ago, but with modern technology, primarily referred to (as what mans eyes "can" observe) a black hole.

Gen 2:4...One Earth. Heaven(S).

Deut. 10:
[14] Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

2 Cor 12:2 gives us an indication of "THREE Heavens", mentioning in Scripture "the THIRD HEAVEN".

Men certainly can see and observe and plane and rocket travel the "lower heavens" we call the SKY, as well as observe...
Stars, Planets, in what I would reference as a "Middle or Second Heaven."

And men have knowledge of black holes in outter space...sort of an odd thing...black, dark, empty appearing...
YET, that is my perspective of precisely Gods High Heaven. Gods abode, estate.
....the Complete Dark seems odd, for God who is Pure Light.
....However from my perspective, it is the appearence to mans eyes of PURE darkeness...precisely because NO LIGHT CAN ESCAPE from GODS HIGHEST HEAVEN...i.e. "The Third Heaven", Gods Throne and estate/ Kingdom.

* Mankind gets "glimpses" of Prophecy foretold of what "shall come to pass" exponentially world wide...
* here and there...forrest fires, earthquakes, wars, famines, diseases, corrupt rulers, false preaching, red waters, red moon, tsunamis, tornados, cyclones, thunders, lightenings, biting insects, powerful unsubdued sea and land animals, human burnings, stench in the air, volcanos erupting, dust blocking the sun, crops failed via insects, droughts, buildings tumbling to destruction, sneaking, cheating behind closed doors, lying propoganda 24-7...on and on.
* Be mindful... as they increase, so also draws near the time of redemption, tribulation, wrath in exponential measures.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[quietthinker]

Souls are immaterial, and souls and spirits are always joined together (yet distinct from each other). The soul is the actual person minus the body

where do you get that definition from?

 

[ReChoired]

... When we read of the resurrection of the daughter of Jairus by Christ, we also read that her spirit returned to her. The soul and spirit had departed for a short while during which she was dead. (I do not normally use the NASB, but I quote it here to avoid any misunderstanding).

New American Standard Bible (Luke 8:55)
And her spirit returned, and she got up immediately; and He [Christ] ordered that something be given her to eat.

Thus:

Luk 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Luk 8:55 και επεστρεψεν το πνευμα αυτης και ανεστη παραχρημα και διεταξεν αυτη δοθηναι φαγειν

Luk 8:55 καιG2532 CONJ επεστρεψενG1994 V-AAI-3S τοG3588 T-NSN πνευμαG4151 N-NSN αυτηςG846 P-GSF καιG2532 CONJ ανεστηG450 V-2AAI-3S παραχρημαG3916 ADV καιG2532 CONJ διεταξενG1299 V-AAI-3S αυτηG846 P-DSF δοθηναιG1325 V-APN φαγεινG5315 V-2AAN​

pneuma, simply means "breath". The 'breath' came back. In other words she started breathing again. The word is given as a noun, nominative singular neuter. It does not refer to the little girl herself, neither a person or being, but simply the 'air', 'wind' or 'breath' of the girl.

Job_27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Isa_2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
​

When the little girl breathed her last breath, she died, and so did her thoughts, and thus she experienced death, yet not the second death.

Psa_146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

When she was given breath again, the thoughts begin again from the moment of last position in thinking.

 

[Curtis]

V

You are missing the meaning of that passage. What Paul was saying is that until the Law of Moses, specific sins could not be assigned to sinners. But that does not mean that the sinners were not held accountable. As a matter of fact the Flood of Noah's day clearly shows that every sinner and wicked person was held accountable for sinning. And the whole world perished.

Absoltely wrong - it very clearly states that no one who lived between Adam and Moses was held accountable for any sin, because the law was not yet given, and its the law which shows man what is a sin, and that convicts man for their sins.
It would be wrong to convict anyone after the fact, for a crime that they had no idea was a crime when they did it, because no law against it was passed until after they did it.
It would be just as wrong for God to hold you accountable for breaking the law, which is how the Bible defines sin - transgression of the law- before you knew it was a sin, because the law hadn’t been given yet.
And that’s what the passage so clearly says.
That’s why Abraham got away with having sex with the maid, and it wasn’t called adultery, because he had no law (which was given 430 years after he lived) that said adultery is a sin, whereas scripture says David committed the sin of adultery for intercourse with Bathsheba, because the law had been given to mankind through Moses by the time he did that.

 

[Enoch111]

Absoltely wrong - it very clearly states that no one who lived between Adam and Moses was held accountable for any sin, because the law was not yet given, and its the law which shows man what is a sin, and that convicts man for their sins.

If that is true, then the Flood could not have happened. And Noah convicted the ungodly world with his preaching, since he is called a preacher of righteousness.

So you are the one who is failing to understand what is stated. But if you prefer delusion, that is your prerogative.

 

[Curtis]

If that is true, then the Flood could not have happened. And Noah convicted the ungodly world with his preaching, since he is called a preacher of righteousness.

So you are the one who is failing to understand what is stated. But if you prefer delusion, that is your prerogative.

You can think there’s a contradiction, but the absolute fact is Paul clearly said from Adam to Moses, there was death in the world, but no imputing of sins until the law was given to Moses - this means that as Paul said, though death reigned because of Adam and ever since Adam, that when God destroyed everyone with the flood, they will not be judged guilty of any sins on the day of judgment, because there was no law given yet.
And that’s what imputing sins means, being judged guilty on judgment day.

 

[Faith1960]

You can think there’s a contradiction, but the absolute fact is Paul clearly said from Adam to Moses, there was death in the world, but no imputing of sins until the law was given to Moses - this means that as Paul said, though death reigned because of Adam and ever since Adam, that when God destroyed everyone with the flood, they will not be judged guilty of any sins on the day of judgment, because there was no law given yet.
And that’s what imputing sins means, being judged guilty on judgment day.

 

[Faith1960]

We’ve kind kind of gotten off track here.

 

[Curtis]

What you are concluding is nonsensical. I think you are trying to convince yourself.
Why present the Law if without it sin is not imputed? The Law showed the exceeding sinfulness of sin.

Back to the need to read the Bible. Paul wrote that the law was given because of transgressions, because without the law is no knowledge of sin - that until it said thou shalt not steal, no one knee stealing was wrong, and everyone did what was wise in their own eyes.

It also crystal clearly says, and it’s not difficult to understand at all, that in the time span between Adam and Moses, sin was not imputed - meaning not being judged guilty of sin on judgment day - to anyone, because when there’s no law, there’s no imputing of sin.

I know that fact upsets sabbath keepers who wrongly claim that man had the sabbath.day command and the law since the 6th day, but that’s not biblical.

Moses states unequivocally in Deuteronomy 5, that our father’s did not have this law I’m about to give you - which chapter 5 shows includes the giving of the ten commands.

 

[ReChoired]

Heaven, Where it is, What it is, and the Way to Heaven:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

 

[quietthinker]

Back to the need to read the Bible. Paul wrote that the law was given because of transgressions, because without the law is no knowledge of sin - that until it said thou shalt not steal, no one knee stealing was wrong, and everyone did what was wise in their own eyes.

It also crystal clearly says, and it’s not difficult to understand at all, that in the time span between Adam and Moses, sin was not imputed - meaning not being judged guilty of sin on judgment day - to anyone, because when there’s no law, there’s no imputing of sin.

I know that fact upsets sabbath keepers who wrongly claim that man had the sabbath.day command and the law since the 6th day, but that’s not biblical.

Moses states unequivocally in Deuteronomy 5, that our father’s did not have this law I’m about to give you - which chapter 5 shows includes the giving of the ten commands.

I'm sorry Curtis but you speak in ignorance on these matters..
1....The antediluvians knew stealing was sin just as much as they did murder, their conscience bearing them witness as did God when he addressed Cain before he murdered Able.

2.... re the Sabbath...Prior to the law given at Sinai the Israelites were told to gather manna each day for six days with a double portion to be gathered on the sixth day because there would be no manna on the seventh because it was a day of rest. If they gathered more on days one to five it did not keep ie, it went rotten but not so for the double portion gathered on the sixth day.

The Sabbath was instituted in Eden along with Marriage. The Commandment given at Sinai said 'Remember the Sabbath Day...'
They are reminded to remember what they had forgotten in their sojourn in Egypt 400 yrs, in other words it was in existence.