John 3 - Born of Water and Spirit

[GracePeace]

Other than this passage there is no other place. I do not think other than begat there is another term used for childbirth.

And I am going by the material given me by authors.

So that is settled then.

But let me ask you how you understand the whole context Jesus spoke this in in light of things like Paul said like "those in the flesh cannot please God.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Verse 5 jesus speaks of 2 births, verse six jesus speaks of 2 births.

In the first statement, Christ clarifies what is necessary for entering ("...no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."), which is the positive, in the next, He disabuses Nicodemus of his misunderstanding ("Can a man reenter his mother's womb and be 'born again'?" "No, Nicodemus, flesh births flesh, but what I'm talking about is being born spiritually--spirit gives birth to spirit."), which is the negative.

These are two different purposes in speaking. The content needn't parallel.

 

[GracePeace]

well here are sone:

From
Yeshua
Life of the Messiah from a Messianic Jewish Perspective:
Volume 2 pp 45-58

Midrash Rabbah physical birth is equated to natural birth per Prov. 5:15-23 The midrash equated water with semen and birth.

For a Jew to be born naturally (born of the flesh) was enough to inherit th ekingdom of God. Midrash Rabbah Genesis 58:8

As previously written there were many "baptisms (immersions) in Pharasaic Judaism so baptsim is not in view, nor th eword of God for Nicodemus was a "teacher of Israel" and well versed in the word and a pious man (tradition has him getting saved).

I can give you many many more references for teh six way someone could be born again in Pharasaic Judaism.

Show where "born of water" was a normative phrase for "natural birth" in Jesus's time and place.

 

[GracePeace]

...so baptsim is not in view, nor th eword of God for Nicodemus was a "teacher of Israel" and well versed in the word and a pious man (tradition has him getting saved).

Well, the Spirit had also worked among them quite a bit, so that couldn't be in view by your reasoning.

The reality is that they weren't born of the Spirit nor the Word--and, yes, we are explicitly told we are "born of incorruptible Seed", so Nicodemus, despite all his learning, did have to be born of the Word, so your argument doesn't work.

 

[GracePeace]

well here are sone:

From
Yeshua
Life of the Messiah from a Messianic Jewish Perspective:
Volume 2 pp 45-58

Midrash Rabbah physical birth is equated to natural birth per Prov. 5:15-23 The midrash equated water with semen and birth.

For a Jew to be born naturally (born of the flesh) was enough to inherit th ekingdom of God. Midrash Rabbah Genesis 58:8

As previously written there were many "baptisms (immersions) in Pharasaic Judaism so baptsim is not in view, nor th eword of God for Nicodemus was a "teacher of Israel" and well versed in the word and a pious man (tradition has him getting saved).

I can give you many many more references for teh six way someone could be born again in Pharasaic Judaism.

So, still no answer for why you insist on blinding yourself to the connection between water and Spirit--"water... spake of the Spirit", "we have all been made to drink of one Spirit".

 

[Nancy]

Indeed you are correct especially when we break down the passage with its contrasts and comparisons.


John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?


So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

conclusion: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.


Regeneration-born again has to do with the wind in the context and parallels the new birth in that process. The serpent illustration is not being born again and Jesus is teaching something else than the new birth afterwards. He is explaining why He was sent into the world after His teaching on the new birth. The serpent illustration being lifted up has to do with Jesus death on the cross when He paid the penalty for sin. 3:14-15

The topic of the OP is specifically the New Birth, Born Again of the Spirit which is compared to the Wind and how it operates.

Do you control or have any influence over the wind ?

Can you call the wind ?

Neither can a person call Gods Spirit in the new birth as its an Act of GOD. See John 1:13. Born again by God.

The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 off the top of my head reading through the passage :

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom

hope this helps !!!

Awesome :)

 

[GracePeace]

Awesome :)

What's "awesome" is that fish he caught (avatar). LOL

 

[GracePeace]

Indeed you are correct especially when we break down the passage with its contrasts and comparisons.


John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?


So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

conclusion: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.


Regeneration-born again has to do with the wind in the context and parallels the new birth in that process. The serpent illustration is not being born again and Jesus is teaching something else than the new birth afterwards. He is explaining why He was sent into the world after His teaching on the new birth. The serpent illustration being lifted up has to do with Jesus death on the cross when He paid the penalty for sin. 3:14-15

The topic of the OP is specifically the New Birth, Born Again of the Spirit which is compared to the Wind and how it operates.

Do you control or have any influence over the wind ?

Can you call the wind ?

Neither can a person call Gods Spirit in the new birth as its an Act of GOD. See John 1:13. Born again by God.

The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 off the top of my head reading through the passage :

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom

hope this helps !!!

Am I correct that you would not see "Unless one is born of water and Spirit" as a positive statement about what is actually needed to "enter God's Kingdom"--that "water" would not have to do with the new birth?

Why would you not see the connection between water and Spirit given us in Scripture ("water... spoke of the Spirit" "we have all been made to drink of one Spirit")? I mean, the Spirit is already Scripturally connected with "fire" and "wind"--and in the same way there is a strong connection with the Spirit and "water".

 

[Nancy]

What's "awesome" is that fish he caught (avatar). LOL

Ha, yeah, that's pretty awesome too

 

[CadyandZoe]

I think you are coming to the conversation with your own baggage and reading that in to what I'm saying rather than just taking me at my word.

I don't know how to understand what you say. So, please forgive me if I don't respond much anymore.

The point was that the Word is called "water"-"washing" isn't the discussion.
Again, we have established that "the Word" is, called "water". That is all.

My point is this. The fact that Jesus used the term "living water" to represent the effect of the spirit, or that Paul used "baptismal water" as a metaphor for sanctification, does not mean that either one of these analogies is applicable in John 3. If someone should use water as a metaphor in one context, this doesn't mean water always represents that idea wherever it is used. This is not how the Bible communicates ideas.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is a silly argument.

What do you find silly about it? Your insults are indicative of someone who lacks confidence in his own beliefs.

EVERY Protestant group I know if has leaders that teach the flock - and they teach THEIR interpretation of Scripture.
So, YOU are, in effect, BOUND to another man's rules.

Let's face it - ALL of Protestantism is based on the rules of men.
The two main pillars of Protestantism - Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura - are inventions of men - NOT of God.

Sola Scriptura is nothing more that a pair of words indicating a complex set of ideas centered around the concept of epistemology: how do we come to know what we know? Most people seem to understand, even if tacitly, that there are two main sources of knowledge: rational and empirical. Theists would add one more: divine revelation. Paul the Apostle lists 5 sources of divine knowledge, which the Spirit of God has granted to Christ to give to his church. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, and preachers.

The foundation of our knowledge of God's will are the Apostles and prophets, and their oracles and messages are found in the holy scriptures. The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura, as I understand it, not only posits that the apostles and prophets are the ONLY reliable source of divine revelation, but that their writings are accessible to anyone who can read.

The RCC, on the other hand, has placed itself between the scriptures and the people, teaching the people that the scriptures are too difficult to understand, and that one must come to the RCC for the authorized interpretation.

Your view about protestants is based on the errors of sinners, who like the RCC wanted to be the sole source of divine revelation. "New boss same as the old boss." I'll grant you that. Nonetheless, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura itself is not the cause or source of empire building. Those who truly practice Sola Scriptura are not bound to any religious authority whatsoever. Not every protestant who ostensibly believes in the doctrine of Sola Scriptura actually practices it. Many protestants affirm denominational doctrines, just as many Catholics affirm Catholic doctrines. But those who practice Sola Scriptura are independent thinkers who study the Bible by themselves or in groups or under the guidance of Bible teachers but always taking responsibility for their own beliefs. An independent Bible student would never say, "my teacher says this", or "my denomination says this." Those who practice Sola Scriptura do business with what they learn from Jesus and his apostles and own the truth for themselves because they have done the hard work required to gain such knowledge. And ultimately those whom God is saving has poured out his spirit into their hearts, so that some people gain divine knowledge in a direct way.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Water is a metonymy for repentance. Water is the word Jesus used to describe repentance because turning back to God through John's baptism for repentance is what people are doing at this time in Israel. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that John's baptism is not enough to see and enter into the kingdom of God. That's flesh giving birth to flesh. You must also be born again through Jesus' baptism, the baptism of the Spirit. That's Spirit giving birth to spirit.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Show where "born of water" was a normative phrase for "natural birth" in Jesus's time and place.

I gave you the references I have, if that is not enough for you, then we are at an impasse.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Water is a metonymy for repentance. Water is the word Jesus used to describe repentance because turning back to God through John's baptism for repentance is what people are doing at this time in Israel. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that John's baptism is not enough to see and enter into the kingdom of God. That's flesh giving birth to flesh. You must also be born again through Jesus' baptism, the baptism of the Spirit. That's Spirit giving birth to spirit.

So the b east rising out of the water is the b east rising out of repentance?
You are being inconsistent with your allegorical reinterpretations. Also Jesus wasn't that much of a mystic like so many here want to make Him be.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So the b east rising out of the water is the b east rising out of repentance?
You are being inconsistent with your allegorical reinterpretations. Also Jesus wasn't that much of a mystic like so many here want to make Him be.

↓↓↓

If someone should use water as a metaphor in one context, this doesn't mean water always represents that idea wherever it is used. This is not how the Bible communicates ideas.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In the first statement, Christ clarifies what is necessary for entering ("...no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."), which is the positive, in the next, He disabuses Nicodemus of his misunderstanding ("Can a man reenter his mother's womb and be 'born again'?" "No, Nicodemus, flesh births flesh, but what I'm talking about is being born spiritually--spirit gives birth to spirit."), which is the negative.

These are two different purposes in speaking. The content needn't parallel.

The content needn't but it does! Paul expands on this thought in Romans.

Romans 2:28-29
King James Version

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Pharasaic Judaism taught as I showed that Jews by simple birth were members of the kingdom. Jesus and Paul taught that both a natural birth and spiritual birth are what is required.

John 3:3-7
King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Vse. 3&4 Jesus brings in the new concept needed to be born again. Once again Nicodemus was born again the four out of the possible 6 ways He could be in Pharasaic Judaism. bar-mitzvah, marriage, being rabbi, becoming a rabbi of rabbis. The term bortn again was not unkn own in Jesus day. It was spoken often in rabbinic circles.

Rabbi J. Cohen Halachic questions Born again Jews (jEWISH PRESS 10/5/90
Rabbi Judah in Gerimn 2.6
b.. Yebamoth 62a
b. Sanhedrin 58a;b
Yebamoth 23a
D Daube NT and Rabbinic Judaism (Hendrickson Publishers 1956 pp 112-113
E Schurer History of the Jewish People in the age of Jesus Christ (Edinburgh T.&T Clark 1979) 2:420 et. al.

As I showed this was a natural conversation not shrouded in metaphors or allegories.

As I linked to the Midrash Rabba, the mindset of the day was that it was enough to be born Jewish to be a member of the kingdom.

the reason why water here is not baptism (immersion) is that Nicodemus had u8ndergone many ritual baptisms (immersions).
the reason why water here is not a metaphor for the word is that Nicodemus was well versed in the word.

Jesus introduced a brand new concept to Israel, to be born from above! This was unknown to Israel of the day! A natural birth (water/flesh) was not enough to see the kingdom, but a spiritual birth was also required. that is why Jesus said one must be born of water AND the spirit. The new birth does not have two parts to accomplish it. we are not born of baptism or the word AND the Spirit- we are born of the spirit alone

People come up with convoluted arguments to defend being born of the word when it is far more simpler as I have shown and demonstrated.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

↓↓↓

So now defend that being born from above is a two step process that we must be born of the word and the spirit!

And if this is what Jesus was allegorizing to, why did he in th every next breath say that which is born of the flesh (natural) is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Also prove that the water in REv the beast rises out of is not the same as JOhn 3. You agree that water does not always mean the same thing when used allegorically so show why REv. is different than here.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, still no answer for why you insist on blinding yourself to the connection between water and Spirit--"water... spake of the Spirit", "we have all been made to drink of one Spirit".

Water and spirit birth are tow separate thinhgs in John 3. Now prove that drinking of one spirit means being born of allegorical water!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So the b east rising out of the water is the b east rising out of repentance?
You are being inconsistent with your allegorical reinterpretations. Also Jesus wasn't that much of a mystic like so many here want to make Him be.

The water of John's baptism for repentance is not enough to see and enter into the kingdom of God. You must also have Jesus' baptism in the Spirit. Repentance, though necessary, is not enough to enter into the kingdom of God....

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. Acts 20:21​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ronald, John's baptism for repentance is not enough. You also have to be baptized into the name of Jesus and receive the Spirit....

3“Into what, then, were you baptized?” Paul asked.

“The baptism of John,” they replied.4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them

Acts 19:3-6​