Where does Matthew 24:23-26 fit in relation to Matthew 24:15-22?

[Davy]

Where we might differ is that, though I take Matthew 24:15 to be future still, I don't take it be involving a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in the future. It's involving a temple though, the same temple 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving, except that verse is not involving a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. Not one thing in all of 2 Thessalonians 2 supports that verse 4 is involving a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

Yeah, that definitely we DISAGREE on.

As I explained, Apostle Paul's "temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 involving the coming "man of sin" to sit in, cannot... ever... point to the Spiritual Temple in Christ Jesus, for those reasons of Ephesians 2 that I showed. It would mean Christ Jesus Himself, its Cornerstone, could be corrupted by that "man of sin". That is impossible. You simply have not thought deeply enough on the matter, and I'm surprised you would even attempt that last statement claim above that you made.

Another reason why we 'know' the "temple of God" phrase is about a future literal 3rd Jewish stone temple built in Jerusalem for the end, is simply because of the future "abomination of desolation" prophecy that Jesus quoted for the end, from the Book of Daniel.

That "abomination of desolation" event per the Book of Daniel REQUIRES a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and with temple worship going on. What did the old covenant temple worship by the Jews involve? Animal sacrifices. That is a REQUIREMENT for the end also in Jerusalem by the Orthodox Jews.

 

[Zao is life]

The way I interpret the Discourse is like such. The events involving it began in the first century post that of Christ's ascension and are involving events during His ascension through His return following His ascension. Per this view it allows for some of the Discourse to be involving what happened in 70 AD, yet 70 AD not being the main focus throughout. Jesus isn't stuck in limbo per the Discourse where He is unable to predict events beyond the first century and 70 AD.

I fully agree with everything you say in the above post (which I've shortened so that I don't exceed the character limit in this post).

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

DAYS OF GREAT TRIBULATION SHORTENED FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE:​

Matthew 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to tribulation [thlîpsis], and shall kill you: and all of you shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

14-22
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When all of you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray all of you that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

For then shall be great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. -- Matthew 24​

WRATH WAS TO COME UPON JUDEA AND JERUSALEM, CAUSING GREAT DISTRESS IN THE LAND:​

Luke 21:20-23
And when all of you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter therein. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!

for there shall be great distress [mégas anánkē] in the land, and wrath [orgḗ] upon this people.

There is a difference between tribulation and wrath, and it's not as though Luke's record of the Olivet Discourse says nothing about the persecution that the saints will endure at the hands of unbelievers - Luke's record of the Olivet Discourse says more about that than it does about the wrath that was to come upon Judea and Jerusalem.

I don't see why it should be that any interpreter ignores the grammar in Matthew 24:9-44, and the meaning of the word therefore in Mat.24:15, and the meaning of the word wrath in Luke 21:23. If anyone just reads Matthew 24:9-44 objectively in accordance with the normal rules of grammar that we all learned in elementary school, it would be impossible to place Matthew 24:21 in the context of anything except the tribulation of the saints at the time of the end of the age that Jesus mentioned in Mat.24:9-14;

and therefore (verse 15) the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet should be seen by the saints as the catalyst for the great tribulation that is to come - it's a very, very clear sign that Jesus gave as "the sign of His coming and of the end of the age", which is the question asked by the disciples which Matthew records, and differs from the question asked by the disciples that Luke records.

So I don't know how you feel about this, but I bear in mind that maybe this is why there is so much argument against the above idea coming from so many Christians - because Satan would obviously want his greatest enemy, the church, to be in a state of confusion about this - and that is even before any disagreement arises about what the abomination of desolation in the holy place is referring to, and where the holy place that is being referred to, is.
​

It's not good. And this is why I appreciate threads like this, because the more Christians there are who might read it, the better - inasmuch that at least the confused and false teaching about this that has been received by many, may at least be cleared up in the minds of some.

 

[Davy]

What amazes me, is how some easily forget previous Books of God's Word that relate to and help interpret New Testament Scripture...

Dan 12:1
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Both Scripture sections in 'red' are about the same timing.

The Dan.12:1 version is showing about the war in Heaven of Revelation 12:7-9, and then linking the result of that war to that time of "great tribulation" described in Matthew 24:21. Also linked right after that tribulation time is that deliverance of those whose names are found written in the book (of life).

Thus it is impossible to try and apply the "great tribulation" event of Matthew 24 to any other time than the very end of this world.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The way I interpret the Discourse is like such. The events involving it began in the first century post that of Christ's ascension and are involving events during His ascension through His return following His ascension. Per this view it allows for some of the Discourse to be involving what happened in 70 AD, yet 70 AD not being the main focus throughout. Jesus isn't stuck in limbo per the Discourse where He is unable to predict events beyond the first century and 70 AD.

Yet, somehow, you don't believe any of Matthew 24-25 or any of Mark 13 is about 70 AD. How do you explain that in light of what you said here?

 

[Douggg]

So where does Matthew 24:23-26 fit in relation to Matthew 24:15-22?

Matthew 24:23-26 covers the time from after the resurrection, and spanning the generations, all the way up unto the day that Jesus returns.

There have been false Christs and false prophets for the past 2000 years. Jesus is saying don't be lead astray by such people.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:23-26 covers the time from after the resurrection, and spanning the generations, all the way up unto the day that Jesus returns.

There have been false Christs and false prophets for the past 2000 years. Jesus is saying don't be lead astray by such people.

I disagree about when the time period being represented in that passage began, though I do agree it's talking about something that would happen for an extended period of time until the day Jesus returns.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

I believe the word "then" in verse 23 means "after that". Which would mean He was talking about what would happen after the tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-21 was over. There would be false Christs and false prophets appearing. There may have been some even before that, but I think the message is that there would be an increase in false Christs and prophets after that time of tribulation (70 AD) who would try to convince people that they would be the ones to restore Jerusalem after it was destroyed in 70 AD. It makes a lot of sense that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD would result in an increase of false Christs and false prophets trying to take advantage of people's desperate desire to see Jerusalem be restored and to see the enemies of the Jews be defeated.

In this thread David is questioning how anyone can see two different tribulations in Matthew 24. I believe Matthew 24:15-22 is describing physical tribulation happening in and around Jerusalem. Matthew 24:23-26, on the other hand, is talking about deception. So, that is spiritual tribulation. I believe it is after the tribulation of THOSE days (not the days of Matthew 24:15-22), that Jesus will return with His angels.

 

[Douggg]

I disagree about when the time period being represented in that passage began, though I do agree it's talking about something that would happen for an extended period of time until the day Jesus returns.

I am thinking of for example - Simon Bar Kokhba, who some of the Jews thought was the messiah for a while.

 

[Douggg]

In this thread David is questioning how anyone can see two different tribulations in Matthew 24. I believe Matthew 24:15-22 is describing physical tribulation happening in and around Jerusalem. Matthew 24:23-26, on the other hand, is talking about deception. So, that is spiritual tribulation. I believe it is after the tribulation of THOSE days (not the days of Matthew 24:15-22), that Jesus will return with His angels.

The tribulation of those days is talking about the great tribulation, but not totally finished.