TULIP an open discussion

[setst777]

I am familiar with your argument, and I disagree with your conclusion. Essentially, you hold that the warnings in scripture are evidence against predestination.

God has predestined to conform "those who love God" into the image of His Son (Romans 8:28-29). That is what "predestination" means in the New Testament.

God conforms the believer to the image of His Son as the believer remains faithful to put off the old man, and to put on the new man.

Colossians 3:9-12 (WEB) 9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator, 11 where there can’t be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, or free person; but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance

The argument is based on the logic of a warning, which understands that warnings imply danger. If the danger didn't exist, then the warning wouldn't be given.

Yes, the warnings are given because the danger exists that they could fall away. That is why the Christians are admonished to be alert, be sober, be vigilant.

Why would God warn his people against falling away if he predestined them to always endure and persevere? The answer is understood from the perspective of God's transcendent position over his creation. Not only is God divinely assigning a destiny to each individual, he does this through narrative. God is creating mini-stories that serve his overall story about sin, punishment, mercy, justice, forgiveness, and redemption.

That is your philosophy.

Warnings are given for various reasons, depending on the context. The warnings we hear are features of our story, the context in which we live out our calling. The presence of warnings fit quite well into a story about perseverance. A story about perseverance will certainly contain warnings about falling away, heading the warnings, and avoiding falling away. Autonomous freewill is not a necessary condition of warnings.

As long as we remain in the faith, we have peace, love, and hope in the promises of God. But true believers can be misled into false doctrine, and many will give into temptations and fall away. So, while believers can rest in the hope of God, the believers also must fear, because God will condemn the believer if he does not continue in the faith.

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) {{{Let us}}} [Paul includes himself as the "us"} fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest.

Paul mentions those who did fall away from THE (definite article) Faith

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {{{THE faith}}}”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {{{THE faith}}}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {{{THE faith}}}.

Others in the OT also fell away from the faith and were lost, and this record was written as an example for our admonition.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12 (WEB) 11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our [Paul includes himself] admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

Hebrews 10:26 (WEB) 26 For if we [Paul includes himself] deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins [Hebrews 10:24-31]

Paul warned and admonished with tears for three years that false teachers would speak perverse things and draw away even "The [definite article] Disciples" (true believers who follow Lord Jesus) after them.

Acts 20:29-33 (WEB) 29 For I know that after my departure, vicious wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away {{{the disciples}}} after them. 31 Therefore watch, remembering that for a period of three years I didn’t cease to admonish everyone night and day with tears. 32 Now, brothers, I entrust you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build up, and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Why would Paul be admonishing the believers day and night with tears for three years that men will arise among themselves who would draw away "THE (def. Article) disciples after them if this is just - according to you - all according to "God's transcendent position over his creation?"

I've shown you five or six now.

The fact is that there is not one Scripture that states or teaches that our faith in Christ is guaranteed by God - Not even one.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God has predestined to conform "those who love God" into the image of His Son (Romans 8:28-29). That is what "predestination" means in the New Testament.

God conforms the believer to the image of His Son as the believer remains faithful to put off the old man, and to put on the new man.

You are making a common mistake by misunderstanding the concept of predestination. Predestination is the act of deciding someone's destiny before they are born. You have misunderstood the concept, assuming that the word means "to decide something ahead of time," as if God decided to conform believers to the image of his son.

Your interpretation:
Before the foundation of the world, God decided to bless all those who believed in his son. The choice is theirs whether to believe.

Predestination: God decided before the foundation of the world that Jack would believe in Jesus and be conformed to the image of his son.

The concept answers the question, "What is to become of select individuals?"

Yes, the warnings are given because the danger exists that they could fall away.

Right, but as we have seen, not all believers fall away. The passages we reviewed answer the question as to why some people will continue to believe in God and trust him, even in light of torture, persecution, torment, oppression and mistreatment. Once a faith has been proven, it is deemed unbreakable, which is why Paul and the others can confidently say that such people will never fall.

That is why the Christians are admonished to be alert, be sober, be vigilant.

Some always heed the warnings and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the reason.

As long as we remain in the faith, we have peace, love, and hope in the promises of God. But true believers can be misled into false doctrine, and many will give into temptations and fall away.

Not according to the Bible.

Paul mentions those who did fall away from THE (definite article) Faith

The fact that some fall away is not proof that any particular individual might fall away someday. The Apostles teach that those with a proven faith will never fall away.

The fact is that there is not one Scripture that states or teaches that our faith in Christ is guaranteed by God - Not even one.

There is not one Scripture that states or teaches that Born Again Believers will fall away.

 

[setst777]

You are making a common mistake by misunderstanding the concept of predestination. Predestination is the act of deciding someone's destiny before they are born. You have misunderstood the concept, assuming that the word means "to decide something ahead of time," as if God decided to conform believers to the image of his son.

The Scriptures, not me or you, decides what predestination means to God.

Romans 8:28-29 (WEB) 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

God decided beforehand to conform to the image of His Son for those who love God, to be God's children.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, {{through faith}} in Christ Jesus.

Regeneration is to receive God’s Spirit after a person believes and becomes a child of God:

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

setst777 said: Yes, the warnings are given because the danger exists that they could fall away.

Right, but as we have seen, not all believers fall away. The passages we reviewed answer the question as to why some people will continue to believe in God and trust him, even in light of torture, persecution, torment, oppression and mistreatment. Once a faith has been proven, it is deemed unbreakable, which is why Paul and the others can confidently say that such people will never fall.

That is your philosophy. Paul was not warning false believers; rather, the warnings are for the true believers in Christ, which includes Paul.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (WEB) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

The Epistles were written to born again Christians by the Apostolic Writers for their encouragement, warning, admonishment, and teaching. A Christian who is in "THE" Faith can fall away and be lost.

The real possibility of falling away from THE [definite article] Faith is taught in Scripture by the Apostles.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning {{{THE faith}}}”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from {{{THE faith}}}, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 (WEB) Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from {{{THE faith}}}.

Peter warned "the called" and "elect" believers of the real possibility of falling away, warning them to be more diligent in making their calling and election sure, and so, enter into the Eternal Kingdom.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Christians who reject, insult, and enrage the indwelling Spirit will suffer eternal punishment if not confessed and repented of (Hebrews 10:24-31; Revelation 3:1-6; Romans 11:19-22). The real possibility of falling away from THE [definite article] Faith is taught in Scripture by the Apostles.

The Apostolic Writers offered no guarantee that any believer would remain faithful; rather, the continual warning is that they remain firm in the faith to be saved.

setst777 said: As long as we remain in the faith, we have peace, love, and hope in the promises of God. But true believers can be misled into false doctrine, and many will give into temptations and fall away.

Not according to the Bible.

I quoted the Scriptures for you.

Paul warned and admonished with tears for three years, day and night, that false teachers would speak perverse things and draw away even "THE [definite article] Disciples" (true believers who follow Lord Jesus) after them.

Acts 20:29-33 (WEB) 29 For I know that after my departure, vicious wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away {{{the disciples}}} after them. 31 Therefore watch, remembering that for a period of three years I didn’t cease to admonish everyone night and day with tears. 32 Now, brothers, I entrust you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build up, and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Paul is deeply emotional about this because he is addressing true believers and warning them of the real possibility of being misled.

 

[CadyandZoe]

John 6:35-40 (WEB)

Question: The Father gives "who" to the Son so they may come to the Son?
Answer: The Father gives to the Son whoever will believe in the Son.

Your question and answer don't follow from the text. Jesus is not answering the question you proposed. He is answering a different question, which he sets up with a "given" statement.

36 But I told you that you have seen me, and yet you don’t believe.

Question: Given that you have seen the miracles that I have performed, especially my healings, what accounts for the seemingly inexplicable response I am getting from you?

In John 3, Nicodemus visits Jesus at night to ask him questions. Nicodemus starts the conversation by saying, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher because no one can perform the signs that You do unless God is with him.” Nicodemus acknowledges the signs as proof that Jesus came from God. However, despite witnessing the same signs and miracles mentioned in verse 36, some of his contemporaries were either unable or unwilling to come to the same conclusion. Jesus explains to Nicodemus that only those who are born again can understand what he understood.

The inexplicable response Jesus is getting to his signs and miracles can only be understood in terms of God's will, his choice and his purposes

Answer:
All those whom the Father gives me will come to me.

Nicodemus came to Jesus because he was born again just as Jesus said. Those who come to Jesus are those whom the Father has given to him. And their belief is indicative that the Father has given them to him.

Question: Who are the "all" whom the Father wills to give to the Son?
Answer: Lord Jesus again identifies the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son in "verse 40," starting with the word "For."

That's right. Jesus does not say that belief is a prerequisite for the Father's choice of whom to give to the Son. In verses 36 and 37, he asserts that a person's belief in Jesus is the result of that person being given to the Son.

Question: The Spirit indwells "who" to give him life?

Answer: The Spirit indwells the believer to give him life (John 7:37-39; Galatians 3:2, 14; Ephesians 1:13-14).

We previously discussed this when we talked about Romans 8. In that passage, Paul asserts that those who are walking in the flesh are hostile to God, which is the opposite of believing in God and trusting him. Your view suggests a situation where a person who is hostile to God believes in and trusts Him, which is a contradiction. In fact, only the friends of God, who walk in the Spirit, believe in His son. This is why I say that being filled with the Spirit comes before belief, since only those who are walking according to the Spirit are friendly with God, trust, love, and obey God.

That doesn't make sense. If, as you say, a person is already created to reject the truth and be condemned, and a person can only believe if regenerated first, then why is it necessary for God to hide the truth from a person created not to believe?

Why is it necessary to hide the truth from those who were already created to reject the truth?

It makes narrative sense, which is why I encourage you to understand "predestination" in terms of a story that God is telling. Suppose God creates Edward's story such that Edward will be a presumptuous, pompous, Pharisee who will reject the truth. Edward's story includes God's hiding the truth from Edward, even while he watches Jesus perform the Signs associated with someone who comes from God.

God chose to save those who believe, according to "Romans 9."

Romans 9:30-32 (WEB) 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? {{{Because}}} they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone

Here, Paul compares and contrasts two approaches to attaining "justifiedness," or God's approval. Those individuals who sought God's approval by believing what God said, whether Jews or Gentiles, attained it, just as Paul argued in chapter 4. Abraham is the father of our faith. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as "righteousness" (justified)

But here, in Chapter 9, Paul is focused on Israel as a whole. Corporately they sought God's approval through works of the Law, as if religious practices would illicit God's approval. In chapter 10, Paul will explain why this is the case.

The difference between seeking justification by faith and seeking justification by works is the difference between the inner man and the outward man. In the following passage, Paul finds an argument for justification by faith in the words of Moses.

Romans 10:5-10

For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. ​

According to Paul, Corporate Israel didn't attain righteousness because they didn't appreciate what Moses said about proper inwardness. Abraham believed God because he had the proper inwardness. He believed in his heart.

Paul relates the same concept with different wording earlier in his letter where he says that a true Jew is one inwardly. And while it is proper for a Jew to be physically circumcised, the only Jew that God will favor is the Jew with a circumcised heart.

Can we circumcise our own hearts? Perhaps, the Bible exhorts Israel to circumcise their hearts. (Deuteronomy 10:16) But according to the book of Deuteronomy, Israel will not receive a circumcised heart until God does it for them. (Deuteronomy 30:6)

And this is one more passage that proves that God must grant a person the proper inwardness before that person will believe in him and trust in him. I maintain that circumcision of the heart is among the first steps God performs in order to save someone.

God forms for dishonor and destruction those who refuse to repent, and has predestined beforehand for glory vessels of mercy.

That is not true because it doesn't properly understand the analogy. The potter analogy illustrates creation, not selection. If God was selecting people, as you say, then he would wait to see which of us repents and which of us doesn't repent. He selects those that repent. But the potter analogy illustrates the concept of creation, not selection. God isn't waiting to see which person repents. He creates some who will repent and he creates some who won't repent.

God endured with much patience, vessels of wrath, but the choice is still up to the sinner to repent and receive God's mercy. God does not repent for them.

God creates them repenting.

God forms into vessels of honor or dishonor depending on if they repent.

No, that would be selecting pots based on whether they repented or not. But God is not selecting pots, he is creating pots.

Paul is teaching that it is the responsibility of each individual to either live by the Spirit (which is life) or live by the Flesh (which is death).

He also teaches that being indwelt by the Spirit is the reason why a person would chose to walk by the Spirit.

The Spirit of God dwells only in those who first believe, and who manifest their faith by walking in the Spirit to give them life, as Paul plainly taught.

I disagree. Paul clearly indicates that a person is "according to the Spirit" If and only if that person has been given the Spirit of Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Paul never teaches that faith results from being born of the Spirit.

An enemy of God doesn't believe God or put trust in God. A person doesn't become a friend of God until they are born of God.

 

[setst777]

Your question and answer don't follow from the text. Jesus is not answering the question you proposed. He is answering a different question, which he sets up with a "given" statement.

36 But I told you that you have seen me, and yet you don’t believe.

Question: Given that you have seen the miracles that I have performed, especially my healings, what accounts for the seemingly inexplicable response I am getting from you?

The answer is that many of the Jews were obstinate and proud refusing to believe (Romans 10:17-21); and so, God judiciously hardened many of them, but not all Jews; rather, just the ones who were obstinate.

Jesus explains to Nicodemus that only those who are born again can understand what he understood.

Lord Jesus did not say that only those who are born again can understand. If you disagree, show me where Lord Jesus said that.

According to Lord Jesus, regeneration is only a possession of those who first believe.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

According to Lord Jesus the Spirit will only indwell those who first believe to give them life.

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

We previously discussed this when we talked about Romans 8. In that passage, Paul asserts that those who are walking in the flesh are hostile to God, which is the opposite of believing in God and trusting him. Your view suggests a situation where a person who is hostile to God believes in and trusts Him, which is a contradiction. In fact, only the friends of God, who walk in the Spirit, believe in His son. This is why I say that being filled with the Spirit comes before belief, since only those who are walking according to the Spirit are friendly with God, trust, love, and obey God.

Paul plainly taught that it is the obligation of the Christian to live by the Spirit to have life.

Romans 8:12 (To the believers in Rome) So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if {{by the Spirit}} you {{put to death the deeds of the body}}, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

Galatians 5:16 (WEB) 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Paul relates the same concept with different wording earlier in his letter where he says that a true Jew is one inwardly. And while it is proper for a Jew to be physically circumcised, the only Jew that God will favor is the Jew with a circumcised heart.

Can we circumcise our own hearts? Perhaps, the Bible exhorts Israel to circumcise their hearts. (Deuteronomy 10:16) But according to the book of Deuteronomy, Israel will not receive a circumcised heart until God does it for them. (Deuteronomy 30:6)

We are given Spiritual Life (circumcision of the Spirit) by faith in Lord Jesus (John 20:31).

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

The reason many of the Jews were uncircumcised in heart is because they refused to believe, resisting the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:51-57 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52 Which of the prophets didn’t your fathers persecute?

A person dead in sin is not made alive so he can believe; rather, by believing we pass out of death onto life.

setst777 said: God forms for dishonor and destruction those who refuse to repent, and has predestined beforehand for glory vessels of mercy.

That is not true because it doesn't properly understand the analogy. The potter analogy illustrates creation, not selection.

It has to be true because that is the way God's word explains the analogy.

God forms for dishonor and destruction those who refuse to repent, and has predestined beforehand for glory vessels of mercy.

God endured with much patience, vessels of wrath, but the choice is still up to the sinner to repent and receive God's mercy. God does not repent for them.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“

God forms into vessels of honor or dishonor depending on if they repent.

2 Timothy 2:20-21 (WEB) 21 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 {{{If anyone}}} therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.

God creates them repenting.

That is your philosophy.

No, that would be selecting pots based on whether they repented or not. But God is not selecting pots, he is creating pots.

God forms into vessels of noble purpose those who repent.

2 Timothy 2:20-21 (WEB) 21 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 {{{If anyone}}} therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.

Jeremiah 18:10-12 (“Potter and the Clay” explained by God) 10 {{{if they}}} do that which is evil in my sight, that {{{they}}} not obey my voice, then I will repent of the good with which I said I would benefit {{{them}}}. 11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. {{{Everyone}}} return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”

He also teaches that being indwelt by the Spirit is the reason why a person would chose to walk by the Spirit.

That is your philosophy. The Christian is obligated to live by the Spirit to receive life.

Romans 8:12 (To the believers in Rome) So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if {{by the Spirit}} you {{put to death the deeds of the body}}, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 (To the Christians in Thessalonica) 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

An enemy of God doesn't believe God or put trust in God. A person doesn't become a friend of God until they are born of God.

Abraham was a friend of God by faith, being justified by faith, before the Spirit was ever poured out on believers.

James 2:23 (WEB) So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness,” [Genesis 15:6] and he was called the friend of God.

The Spirit was given to all believers only in the New Covenant, after Lord Jesus was glorified, and started on the Day of Pentecost.

John 7:37-39 (EWEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The answer is that many of the Jews were obstinate and proud refusing to believe (Romans 10:17-21); and so, God judiciously hardened many of them, but not all Jews; rather, just the ones who were obstinate.

Your argument isn't valid. John 6 records what Jesus said about individual Jews, explaining why some of them believed his word, i.e. those whom the Father had given to him. Whereas Paul isn't talking about individual Jews in Romans 10, he is talking about Corporate Israel. There, he says that corporate Israel didn't receive justification because it was sought by works of the law and not by faith.

In chapter 11, Paul will explain why some Jewish people did believe while others didn't believe. The reason why some didn't believe is because God hardened their hearts.

Lord Jesus did not say that only those who are born again can understand. If you disagree, show me where Lord Jesus said that.

Jesus said it in John 3.

According to Lord Jesus, regeneration is only a possession of those who first believe.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 5 doesn't make your point. The passage doesn't say that belief precedes regeneration. You are assuming causation here but there is nothing in the statement that implies causation.

Paul plainly taught that it is the obligation of the Christian to live by the Spirit to have life.

What about it? Those who are indwelt by the Spirit, i.e., born again, will live by the Spirit. It's a given.

We are given Spiritual Life (circumcision of the Spirit) by faith in Lord Jesus (John 20:31).

Faith is a spiritual, inward matter, which is why circumcision of the heart precedes faith in the Lord Jesus.

The reason many of the Jews were uncircumcised in heart is because they refused to believe, resisting the Holy Spirit.

No, the reason many of the Jews were uncircumcised in heart is because God didn't circumcise their hearts.

A person dead in sin is not made alive so he can believe; rather, by believing we pass out of death onto life.

I disagree. Read Romans 8 again.

It has to be true because that is the way God's word explains the analogy.

We don't superimpose Jeremiah onto Romans 9. We understand Romans 9 from within Romans 9 itself. Look, I get it. You have been handed a broken chair and told to sit down. But the story you bought is not worth the paper on which it is printed. Those who told you that Jeremiah informs Romans have put rocks in your stocking.

God forms for dishonor and destruction those who refuse to repent, and has predestined beforehand for glory vessels of mercy.

What you describe is selection, not creation.

God forms into vessels of honor or dishonor depending on if they repent.

Here again you argue for selection rather than creation.

That is your philosophy.

I have simply made sense of the argument. If you see a mistake, let me know.

God forms into vessels of noble purpose those who repent.

Here again, you describe selection not creation.

That is your philosophy. The Christian is obligated to live by the Spirit to receive life.

I get it. What we have here is your shield, a phrase that lets you pass over an argument that defeats your perspective. I understand. We don't like to be proven wrong. We don't like it when someone shatters our entire worldview. We don't like to find out that we have been lied to all this time.

Why would I disagree that a Christian is obligated to live by the Spirit? What's the point? Did I deny this? I don't think I did. Reread Romans 8 again. According to Paul, a person who has been given the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ will always live by the Spirit. It's a given.

Abraham was a friend of God by faith, being justified by faith, before the Spirit was ever poured out on believers.

So what? The point is, based on what Paul said in Romans 8 we can conclude that Abraham was "according to the Spirit."

The Spirit was given to all believers only in the New Covenant, after Lord Jesus was glorified, and started on the Day of Pentecost.

That is incorrect. The outpouring of the Spirit was always given on an individual basis to those whom God chose.

Psalm 51:10-12

Create in me a clean heart, O God,​

And renew a steadfast spirit within me.​

Do not cast me away from Your presence​

And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.​

Restore to me the joy of Your salvation​

And sustain me with a willing spirit.​

John 7:37-39 (EWEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

The outpouring recorded in John 7 is different from the indwelling of the Spirit as recorded in Romans 8. At Pentecost, the Spirit was manifest through the outward gift of tongues. The miracle of hearing someone preach the gospel in your own language is one of the signs of an Apostle.

By contrast, unlike Pentecost which was an outward manifestation of the Spirit, Romans 8 speaks about the internal reality of those who have the Spirit of God.

 

[setst777]

Your argument isn't valid. John 6 records what Jesus said about individual Jews, explaining why some of them believed his word, i.e. those whom the Father had given to him.

Where does "John 6:34-37" state "why" some individuals believed in his word?

Whereas Paul isn't talking about individual Jews in Romans 10, he is talking about Corporate Israel. There, he says that corporate Israel didn't receive justification because it was sought by works of the law and not by faith.

That is correct, Israel, as a whole, did not seek God by faith; but rather, by works of the Law.

In chapter 11, Paul will explain why some Jewish people did believe while others didn't believe. The reason why some didn't believe is because God hardened their hearts.

Continue reading to "Romans 11:9-11" and you will see that God hardened Israel because of their own transgression, and that is why David cursed Israel for their sins, even though he was an Israelite.

Romans 11:
9 And David says: “May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.”
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Israel’s transgression was great, although God was patient with them, as "Romans 10:21" also states:

Romans 10:20 Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who didn’t seek me. I was revealed to those who didn’t ask for me.” [Isaiah 65:1] 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” [Isaiah 65:2]

That is why God hardened them.

Jesus said it in John 3.

Where in "John 3" did Lord Jesus say that only those who are born again can understand?

John 5 doesn't make your point. The passage doesn't say that belief precedes regeneration. You are assuming causation here but there is nothing in the statement that implies causation.

I am just reading the Passage as stated, which plainly states that eternal life and life from death are by faith.

According to Lord Jesus, regeneration is only a possession of those who first believe.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life {regeneration}.

John 20:31 These are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life {regeneration} in his name.

John 12:46 (WEB) 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness {regeneration}

setst777 said: Paul plainly taught that it is the obligation of the Christian to live by the Spirit to have life.

What about it? Those who are indwelt by the Spirit, i.e., born again, will live by the Spirit. It's a given.

Where in the NT does it state that those who are indwelt by the Spirit will live by the Spirit?

How does your philosophy account for many Spirit-indwelt Christians who:

• Grieve the indwelling Spirit (Ephesians 4:17-32),
• Quench the indwelling Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19),
• Insult/Enrage the indwelling Spirit (Hebrews 10:24-31),
• Reject the indwelling Spirit (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8),
• Lie to the indwelling Spirit (Acts 5:3), and
• Test the indwelling Spirit (Acts 5:9).
• ????

Faith is a spiritual, inward matter, which is why circumcision of the heart precedes faith in the Lord Jesus.

Spiritual life is by faith:

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life {regeneration}.

John 20:31 These are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life {regeneration} in his name.

So what? The point is, based on what Paul said in Romans 8 we can conclude that Abraham was "according to the Spirit."

The indwelling of the Spirit is a New Covenant promise to those who believe (John 7:37-39).

That is incorrect. The outpouring of the Spirit was always given on an individual basis to those whom God chose.

Psalm 51:10-12

Create in me a clean heart, O God,​

And renew a steadfast spirit within me.​

Do not cast me away from Your presence​

And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.​

Restore to me the joy of Your salvation​

And sustain me with a willing spirit.​

David was a king of Israel. God indwelt all the Kings of Israel, starting with King Saul (1 Samuel 10:5-7).

The Spirit also indwelt the prophets, the judges, and other people to accomplish special tasks.

The outpouring of the Spirit onto believers did not occur until the New Covenant - a New Covenant Promise.

John 7:38-39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 16:7 Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:17 KJV: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he [the Spirit] dwelleth {{{with}}} you, and shall be {{{in}}} you.

Even the disciples believed in and followed Lord Jesus before ever being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

The outpouring recorded in John 7 is different from the indwelling of the Spirit as recorded in Romans 8. At Pentecost, the Spirit was manifest through the outward gift of tongues. The miracle of hearing someone preach the gospel in your own language is one of the signs of an Apostle.

There is only one Spirit who was sent to indwell all believers, only in the New Covenant to give them spiritual life.

John 7:37-39 (EWEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Either the Spirit indwells you or he doesn't indwell you. The Spirit is a person who indwells those who believe.

By contrast, unlike Pentecost which was an outward manifestation of the Spirit, Romans 8 speaks about the internal reality of those who have the Spirit of God.

Only one Spirit gives life by indwelling a person, and the Spirit only indwells those who first believe.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit {through faith}.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Personally, I find that concept completely unScriptural. My testimony is that God presented to me the evidence of the truth of the Gospel, but then required me to either commit myself to it or not.

Much love!

Amen! This is my experience as well. God draws us, but He never forces anyone to choose Him. He very lovingly and consistently drew and called me ...but I delayed for 3 solid years until I surrendered my heart to Him.