Paul taught that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality

[Zao is life]

It seems to me, for example, take Pretrib. There might be millions that believe that doctrine to be true, rather than just one person believing it to be true. This would still be an example of a private interpretation regardless that millions are interpreting it in the same manner. A private interpretation involves doctrines not found in the Bible. Clearly, though Pretribbers disagree of course, Pretrib is not found in the Bible, thus a private interpretation.

And the same is true of Premil vs Amil since both views can't be true. Assuming one of those positions is true, the one that is not true, it is a private interpretation. Except none of us can actually undeniably prove which position is true and that we all won't know that until the 2nd coming happens first. In the meantime we have both views insisting their view is correct. This will no longer be an issue once Christ returns and settles this debate once and for all.

I agree. A private interpretation of scripture that begins with one person or a small group of people and over time spreads to millions is still a private interpretation. In this regard (of spreading from one or a few to millions) it's like Adam's sin. Our own sin is still our private sin.

Copy @PinSeeker

 

[PinSeeker]

The more Amillennialists imply by the things they say that Christ's Spirit was quickened by the Spirit of Christ...​

"Good" amillennialists would never say or imply this, Zao. As I have said, Christ did not need to be quickened spiritually ~ born again ~ as He, being (as you agree) God was never dead in sin.

...rather than Christ's body having been quickened (and hence, raised)...​

"Good" amillennialists certainly don't deny this; Christ was certainly physically, bodily resurrected, and because of that we will be someday, too, like Him; I would hope all Christians, regardless of their view of the millennium, believe that...

through and by the quickening of the Spirit of Christ (because as it is written, death could not hold Him)...​

"Good" amillennialists would never say or imply this, Zao. As I have said, Christ did not need to be quickened spiritually ~ born again ~ as He, being (as you agree) God was never dead in sin, a point on which I'm... pretty sure... we all agree...

and the more they try to imply that our spirits are "raised from the dead" through the quickening of the Spirit of Christ...

Well, Paul explicitly says this (though you don't accept it): "when we were dead in our trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"...

...the reason that we can be said to be (already now) seated with Him in heavenly places, is because we have been bodily raised with Him (synegeírō)...

Yes, amillennialists ~ and I would hope any other live person... ~ would strongly assert that we have not been bodily dead yet, so could not have been bodily raised yet... Wow.

...we have been quickened by the Spirit of God with Him (syzōopoiéō), because we have been born of His Spirit, who dwells in us...

Absolutely; again, I would hope any Christian of any millennial view would agree with this.

the more they try to imply all this...

So... they don't.

...the more I become aware of just how lame all their arguments are.

Anyone is welcome to his/her opinion(s), misguided as they may be.

One of them even went so far as to imply in his last response to me in this thread that Paul's teaching on this implies that Christ was dead in His (own) sin (or that I was implying it, or something...

Because you were; that was the effect of what you were saying, albeit unintentionally.

...and this Amillennialist said this...

I hope you're not attributing that to me. But if so, that's okay, but it's a false attribution.

, forgetting that the only reason Christ died, is because our sin was laid on Him.

Yeah, always remember that, by all means...

...Amillennialism relies on its false theology regarding this...

Well no, it "relies on a theology" quite different from the theology you falsely attribute to it. Now, whether this false attribution is unintentional or purposeful on your part is... unclear.

...being "quickened and raised by the Spirit" does not equate with being born of the Spirit...

"Good" amillennialists would agree; I certainly do... I've said this several times now...

...but is talking about being quickened and bodily raised with Christ BECAUSE we have been born of the Spirit...

Paul was talking to live folks ~ even including himself, thus the "we" and "us"... "we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ... raised us up" ~ and by extension is writing to us likewise live folks, who have not yet died, been physically (bodily) dead, and so therefore could not yet have been physically or bodily raised. Goodness gracious.

...Amillennialists will never admit their error....

Well, not the error you falsely attribute to them, no, because they don't make that error...

At least, not while they continue to choose to remain faithful to their beloved theology / theologies...

Ah, you know, it is very possible to idolize theology. Yes, Christians of all walks can idolize pretty much anything. And the tone of your posts seems to indicate that... Well...

I agree. A private interpretation of scripture that begins with one person or a small group of people and over time spreads to millions is still a private interpretation...

Well, okay, but you could attribute that to any "interpretation," even the correct one.

Our own sin is still our private sin.

Sure. But regarding "interpretations," I would assert that if one is mistaken regarding any part of the Bible, it is not necessarily sinful. Eve was sinful in Eden, although differently than Adam, who deliberately disobeyed God. She was deceived, as Paul later says. So, how was she sinful? Hint: Not because she was deceived by Satan. I hope you can see the parallel, but if not, that's... okay.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

Sure. But regarding "interpretations," I would assert that if one is mistaken regarding any part of the Bible, it is not necessarily sinful.

And as any honest reader can see I never said or implied it was necessarily sinful. Believing false doctrine out of ignorance is not sinful. Deliberately holding onto falsehood (whether theology or any other) even when it's been proved from the Bible that something is not true, is another issue.

There's a whole long list of what is sinful,

for example applying an argument like yours above - which implies that because I said, "it's like sin started off with one man and affected millions over time" - that I was implying that believing false theology is necessarily sinful

- and then using that sort of slur as a straw-man argument - because what you are doing is pretending to "misunderstand" what a person says, and then imply or claim that the person said something they did not.

It's that sort of thinking that's sinful - and it's noteworthy that you do the same with scripture. You continue to falsely claim that scripture is saying something that it is not saying. Such as your repeated false assertion that Paul was speaking about a "spiritual" resurrection from the dead, in the examples you give, when he was not.

It really does not matter how many times you repeat this Amillennialist false assertion: Paul is not "explicitly" applying the above to the resurrection of the human spirit" (though you don't not accept it). He is not applying it to "the resurrection of the human spirit" at all.

So I'll repeat this again, though you are hard of hearing, because you keep repeating the same false assertion, even though you have provided zero scriptures in support of it. (because Eph.2:4-6 and the scriptures you have quoted do not support what you are asserting - which is what you keep doing in defense of Amillennialism, rather than in defense of scripture):

Jesus prayed to God the Father concerning those who believe in Him:

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me." -- John 17:23.

To His disciples He said,

"Ye shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." -- John 14:20

Paul, the apostle of Jesus, taught us the following:-

"If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

The one who raised Christ from the dead will quicken your mortal bodies if His Spirit dwells in you.

Paul does not contradict himself - he repeats himself: He says exactly the same thing again in his letter to the Ephesians:

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word synegeírō (raised with Christ) is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit.

anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō and synegeírō:: A standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death: In each and every verse or passage in the New Testament where the above words are used, they are talking about, and referring to, the resurrection of the body (the body that was dead or the body that had died, which is the seed of the spiritual, but tangible, body that we have the assurance of, will be raised).

synegeírō: Refers to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.

zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

syzōopoiéō: Used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ.

Paul does not contradict himself - he repeats himself: He says exactly the same thing again in Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1;

and in Romans 6:5:​

"For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection (anastasis)"

Goodness gracious. Christ's Spirit was not quickened by the Spirit of Christ. His body was - and He is the last Adam, the Son of man.
​

Being born of God applies to the human spirit. Quickening applies only to the resurrection of the body. Our spirit is not "quickened" by the spirit of Christ but our body will be, and this happens because we have been born of His Spirit and bodily quickened with Him - but we have not actually died in our own bodies (yet), any more than we are actually sitting in our own bodies in heaven with Him.

Goodness gracious His Spirit is in us, because we have been born of His Spirit, therefore we have been quickened with Him, and His quickening applies to His body, not His Spirit, and we have been quickened with Him so as to be bodily resurrected with Him and this is why we are seated with Him in heavenly places. We don't have to be dead or no longer alive in the body for this to be the case.​

 

[WPM]

What about Revelation 20:4 though, and how Amils like yourself have them reigning in heaven in a disembodied state after they have been martyred and are awaiting the resurrection of their body? How can Hebrews 12:22-24 possibly apply to someone while in a disembodied state?

Both Revelation 20 and Hebrews 12 describe the disembodied state of the dead in Christ, albeit covering different detail. Both relate to the same time period.

 

[WPM]

And as any honest reader can see I never said or implied it was necessarily sinful. Believing false doctrine out of ignorance is not sinful. Deliberately holding onto falsehood (whether theology or any other) even when it's been proved from the Bible that something is not true, is another issue.

There's a whole long list of what is sinful,

for example applying an argument like yours above - which implies that because I said, "it's like sin started off with one man and affected millions over time" - that I was implying that believing false theology is necessarily sinful

- and then using that sort of slur as a straw-man argument - because what you are doing is pretending to "misunderstand" what a person says, and then imply or claim that the person said something they did not.

It's that sort of thinking that's sinful - and it's noteworthy that you do the same with scripture. You continue to falsely claim that scripture is saying something that it is not saying. Such as your repeated false assertion that Paul was speaking about a "spiritual" resurrection from the dead, in the examples you give, when he was not.

It really does not matter how many times you repeat this Amillennialist false assertion: Paul is not "explicitly" applying the above to the resurrection of the human spirit" (though you don't not accept it). He is not applying it to "the resurrection of the human spirit" at all.

So I'll repeat this again, though you are hard of hearing, because you keep repeating the same false assertion, even though you have provided zero scriptures in support of it. (because Eph.2:4-6 and the scriptures you have quoted do not support what you are asserting - which is what you keep doing in defense of Amillennialism, rather than in defense of scripture):

Jesus prayed to God the Father concerning those who believe in Him:

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me." -- John 17:23.

To His disciples He said,

"Ye shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." -- John 14:20

Paul, the apostle of Jesus, taught us the following:-

"If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

The one who raised Christ from the dead will quicken your mortal bodies if His Spirit dwells in you.

Paul does not contradict himself - he repeats himself: He says exactly the same thing again in his letter to the Ephesians:

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word synegeírō (raised with Christ) is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit.

anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō and synegeírō:: A standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death: In each and every verse or passage in the New Testament where the above words are used, they are talking about, and referring to, the resurrection of the body (the body that was dead or the body that had died, which is the seed of the spiritual, but tangible, body that we have the assurance of, will be raised).

synegeírō: Refers to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.

zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

syzōopoiéō: Used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ.

Paul does not contradict himself - he repeats himself: He says exactly the same thing again in Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1;

and in Romans 6:5:​

"For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection (anastasis)"

Goodness gracious. Christ's Spirit was not quickened by the Spirit of Christ. His body was - and He is the last Adam, the Son of man.
​

Being born of God applies to the human spirit. Quickening applies only to the resurrection of the body. Our spirit is not "quickened" by the spirit of Christ but our body will be, and this happens because we have been born of His Spirit and bodily quickened with Him - but we have not actually died in our own bodies (yet), any more than we are actually sitting in our own bodies in heaven with Him.

Goodness gracious His Spirit is in us, because we have been born of His Spirit, therefore we have been quickened with Him, and His quickening applies to His body, not His Spirit, and we have been quickened with Him so as to be bodily resurrected with Him and this is why we are seated with Him in heavenly places. We don't have to be dead or no longer alive in the body for this to be the case.​

Fullness of the Gentiles,

Instead of continually running your mouth off all the time, can you provide hard evidence to support your beliefs?

No! You are unable to corroborate Premil. That is because it is simply not there. I challenge you to a public debate to see who has corroboration for their position. I will not hold my breath. That is because Premil cannot abide biblical scrutiny or does it carry biblical support elsewhere in the sacred pages.

Because you have nothing on Amillennialism you have to twist what we believe in order to give your view some semblance of credibility.

Changing your name seems to have changed your attitude for the worst.

 

[Timtofly]

Right, if A and B are opposed (so to speak) to each other, then the only possibilities are that one is right and the other wrong… or that both are wrong.

If ‘private interpretation’ is meant in the sense of, oh, ‘personally accepted,’ or understood in a particular way by one group of persons and differing from another, then fine, but it seems a misnomer to me.

Grace and peace to you.

Private interpretation does not mean you came up with the theology. It means a person at one point in time came up with a personal interpretation, and it went viral, so to speak. Just like the physical is not the opposite of spiritual, private in this case is not the opposite of public.

Islam is a private interpretation of Scripture made by one man, named Mohammed, who then went on to write his own personal scripture, even though allegedly from a source other than himself.

Yes, even today people come up with private interpretation, because no one else has had that thought. However there are some new thoughts that come from Scripture even today, that is not private, but is considered that way, because it goes against accepted theology that is a private interpretation, although publicly accepted, and not Scripture at all. So the public taught teaching is private interpretation, while the thought from Scripture is not, but wrongly alleged as private.

"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator."

The verse that every one uses is not simply about interpretation but an actual revelation from God, passed down in God's Word. Which is interpreted as the writer's thoughts and put into God's Word.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

So some prophecy can never be private, but always of the Holy Spirit, by the original revelation, and the continued understanding of that revelation by the Holy Spirit. We see a lot of people who defend their private interpretation, by claiming "spiritual discernment" when it is simply "changing the truth of God into a lie". But only the Holy Spirit can convince and convict when someone is not being honest, even with themselves. That is when personal conviction is deception.