Do you believe this is...

face2face · May 19, 2024

MA2444 said:
Geez did I speak too soon?
What makes you think that Angels dont have free will?

Okay,

What is the source of your free will?

I could ask the same question of you...what makes you think Angels have a free will?

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. James 1:13

What is the source of Evil Desire?

God's Divine Nature or Corrupting flesh?

Answer honestly MA.

F2F

face2face · May 19, 2024

Taken said:
Yup. And precisely why I mentioned “context” to you.

You should try to consider “context”…in application to angels and to manKIND are not the same thing.

Precisely hence the OP - sin only relates to mankind from the first page to the last!

Taken said:
CONTEXT…Rom 6:23 applies to MANS “LIFE”…which is HIS PHYSICAL FLESH AND BLOOD BODY.

And you prove that by quoting Romans 6:23 - God's Divine Decree - if you sin you die end of story which is why its impossible for Angels to sin because its impossible for God nature to die.

Taken said:
OXYMORON…”DIVINE ANGELS”, do not SIN.

There is only one kind of Angel - Divine!

Taken said:
CONTEXT…
Angels…ARE “spirits”.
Man…….HAS a “spirit”.

Man has mortality!

Taken said:
CONTEXT…
* Scripture was “WRITTEN; ”FOR ManKIND”.
Scripture was “NOT” Written:
FOR the Lord God,
FOR the Earth,
FOR the Plants,
FOR the Heavens,
FOR the Animals,
FOR the Angels,
* Mention IN Scripture “OF”….
The Lord God, the Earth, the Heavens, the Plants, the Animals, the Angels;
* IS “expressly” FOR the Benefit OF MANKIND. PERIOD.

Not sure what all that was about as it has nothing to do with proving your belief in a rebel Angel.

Taken said:
Utter nonsense. Angels are NOT Humans.

So the word Angel is used of Human in the following places: Matt. 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; 9:52; and James 2:25.

Take Matthew 11:10 as an example

Angelos can speak of a Divine Being or a Sinful Human Being - simply means messenger.

Did you know that?

So passages like 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6 which relate to past OT accounts do not relate to Divine Messengers but Human Messengers!

Taken said:
I fully understand;
* God IS Spirit.

Correct.

Taken said:
* God IS NOT subject to DEATH. Period.

Or those who share His Nature!

Taken said:
* Angels ARE spirits.

Correct!

Taken said:
* Fallen Angels ARE subject to spiritual death.

Now you simply haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Taken said:
* Spiritual DEATH, DOES NOT KILL THE spirit…SPIRITUAL DEATH, “KILLS” the “ABILITY” to “commune WITH God”!!

You have something weird going on here Taken - spirituality is IN the mind - its a way of thinking, not an essence in a person.

Hence "set your minds on things above..." "Let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus" and so on...and so on!

Taken said:
* ManKIND…
IS a physical BODY, naturally BORN IN SIN.
* ManKIND…
HAS a natural sinful spirit, NOT “WITH” God.
* ManKIND’s…
PHYSICAL LIFE (BLOOD), must & shall DIE
(God REQUIRES that BLOOD DEATH!)
* ManKIND HAS FREEWILL to Physically CHOOSE, TO BE…”WITH” or “WITHOUT” God, WHILE mankind “IS” physically ALIVE.

As per the OP The Angels only ever do God's Will.. they don't have a corrupting nature therefore they cannot sin!

We have already proven the source of temptation and sin and its not in God or His Angels but mortal flesh!

Taken said:
* Angels Were ALL created…HOLY, DIVINE, and in communion “WITH God”.
* Angels ALL Have FREEWILL to “REMAIN, HOLY, DIVINE”….”WITH GOD”….or FREEWILL, to REJECT God…and BE “WITHOUT GOD”.
* Divine /Holy Angels…WITH God…HAVE their estate IN Heaven.
* Divine /Holy Angels…WITH God…SERVE God “IN” Heaven and “ON” Earth.
* “Fallen” Angels FREELY CHOSE to “REJECT” God.
* “Fallen” Angels “CONSEQUENCE” for Rejecting God…IS:

Just your words - Scripture Taken! Where is your supporting evidence?

Taken said:
** THEY HAVE LOST their Divinity/Holiness.
** THEY HAVE LOST their First estate: heaven.
** THEY HAVE LOST their “communing” WITH God. (Ie they have BECOME “separated” FROM God.)
** THEY “CANNOT” REUNITE WITH God.

You have so much going on here where do we start?

Scripture would help - if you can't prove it with the Word you are wasting your time and mine

Taken said:
* ManKIND is NOT naturally BORN…divine, holy, or WITH God.
* ManKIND HAS the FREEWILL…to BECOME “MADE”
** By their FREEWILL CHOICE…good, holy, divine, WITH God…
** By, Through, Of…the Mercy, the Grace, the OFFERING, the Forgiveness, the WORD and the POWER OF GOD.

You MIXING and MESHING “CONTEXT” that which APPLIES “ONLY” to angels and “ONLY” to manKind…
WILL NEVER lead you to THE TRUTH or the UNDERSTANDING OF the TRUTH”…

Said from the one who has not referenced a single passage.

The Bible boy the Bible!

Taken said:
Angels …. ARE spirits … they CAN sin… their Consequence FOR SIN….”IS NOT PHYSICAL DEATH”. Their Consequence for sin…”IS” separation FROM God” !

Incorrect... are you just making this up?

Taken said:
ManKIND …. IS flesh and blood … they are BORN IN sin, they CAN and DO commit sin…their Consequence FOR SIN… “IS PHYSICAL DEATH OF their (LIFE)…ie BLOOD.
Their “SIN” that REMAINS “unforgiven”… HAS a “consequence” of BEING “separated FROM God”.

All sin is decree by God as death!...which is why you are having a difficult time proving Angels can sin

Taken said:
I am not the one IN NEED of reading, studying, understanding…
Nor am I the one stuffing MY WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH, then Disagreeing with you…

Struggling?>

Taken said:
You created a thread in a debate forum.
Learn what a debate is, and proceed appropriately…because a debate certainly IS NOT gaslighting, as you have been DOING!

Glory to God,
Taken

Gaslighting?

How many replies have you made to date? Don't lose ground by resorting to these games.

When you prove something support it with Bible text that way we both have a point of reference.

The OP held two quotes both of which prove two undeniable truths

1. All angels of Gods to His pleasure and obey fully His commands
2. Almighty God has complete dominion in Heaven a place which is undivided and Kept in Constant Holiness

As Christ could say wholeheartedly "May Your will be done on Earth (coming Kingdom) as it is done in Heaven!"

Of course, this cannot be said if you have rebel angels

F2F

face2face · May 19, 2024

Taken said:
You have presented a FALSE CLAIM…

Your FALSE CLAIM…

Utterly FALSE! Scripture says NO SUCH THING!

As Adam was being Escorted out of the Garden, they passed BY the Tree of Life situated IN THE MIDST of the Garden…and Adam ABSOLUTELY could have FREELY REACHED OUT and plucked the fruit from the Tree of Life, Eaten that Fruit…and LIVED FOREVER!!

Gen 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

“LEST” was Adams ABSOLUTELY Freewill OPTION to TAKE and EAT from the Tree of Life.

You claiming he was…”NOT ALLOWED”…is bold face FALSE!

The FACT IS…Adam Freely CHOSE to not reach out and take and eat of the Tree of Life.

You twisting Scripture to FIT your own False narrative and trying to upchuck YOUR failure of Comprehension ON OTHERS… is only accountable unto YOU…and you are FOOLING no one with your antics!

Glory to God,
Taken

Reading over your replies, I think this quote in Gen 3:22 has presented you with a problem, which will haunt you for a while to come.

On one hand you force your trinitarian understanding on the first 3 chapters, but here in Gen 3:22 you can't do that, as it relates to the experience of sin and its consequences. In the context of Sin, God cannot be the focus of "US"...only being such as the Angels could possibly have known Evil like Adam and Eve now do!

What this does is cause you to question the level of involvement the Angels had in Creation and the Garden. It also prompts questions which lead you to the origin of sin, and how this is unique to mankind and not Divine beings. It also means you now need to revisit passages with you thought taught one thing but now the door is open for you to discover a greater more meaningful truth.

Let me know if you need help with that

In the Masters Service
F2F

Taken · May 19, 2024

face2face said:
You know they are His Ministering Spirits sent to do His Will - surely you know this Taken? They carry His name!

No-one is in agreement with the OP because no-one is yet to provide evidence that some Angels can be tempted with evil and can sin while others do not.

Provide an origin story for this rebel angel that clearly shows your beliefs.

It shouldn't be this hard !

Do angels have a carnal mind?

Can angels be at enmity with God?

Can Angels who are that Spirit sin?

[/QUTE]

You are almost there Taken!

F2F

It is clever for you to make an erroneous assumption and declare my position is almost accomplished.

Taken · May 19, 2024

face2face said:
One of us?
To know by experience Good & Evil hmmm sounds like Angels to me Taken!

God does not counsel with His Angels…
~~“Let us make man in our image”~~ ….No, as you suggest.

“Us” in proper context is the WHOLE of God, Creator and Maker introduced in the beginning of Scripture Revealed for manKIND…

Gen 1:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said…

You should have continued learning MORE knowledge little by little other introductory Names, Titles, Descriptions of:
the ] ONE without Beginning or Ending…
Lord ...Son, Jesus, Word
God …Father
Almighty…Christ

God cannot "know" evil -

F2F
[/QUOTE]

Isa 45:
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God knows ALL things.

Taken · May 19, 2024

face2face said:
Reading over your replies, I think this quote in Gen 3:22 has presented you with a problem, which will haunt you for a while to come.

On one hand you force your trinitarian understanding on the first 3 chapters, but here in Gen 3:22 you can't do that, as it relates to the experience of sin and its consequences. In the context of Sin, God cannot be the focus of "US"...only being such as the Angels could possibly have known Evil like Adam and Eve now do!

What this does is cause you to question the level of involvement the Angels had in Creation and the Garden. It also prompts questions which lead you to the origin of sin, and how this is unique to mankind and not Divine beings. It also means you now need to revisit passages with you thought taught one thing but now the door is open for you to discover a greater more meaningful truth.

Let me know if you need help with that

In the Masters Service
F2F

I do not turn to babes to seek Gods Spiritual Understanding… Your “help” was neither requested or necessary.

Taken · May 19, 2024

face2face said:
If you persist eventually you will be forced to acknowledge you have no origin story of a fallen angel.

God’s Word reveals the origin of A and Multiple “holy” angels who fell from Faith and Gods Grace, Forfeiting their description of “holiness” and their “first estate”.

Seems you are of the opinion fallen angels do not exist and a detriment unto yourself.

I am not subject to your consequences for your beliefs or choices.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · May 19, 2024

face2face said:
Precisely hence the OP - sin only relates to mankind from the first page to the last!

F2F

Your error.

2 Pet 2:
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I suspect you fail to comprehend DEATH, thus fail to understand HOW manKIND and spirit angels can EXPERIENCE DEATH, yet while they live.

Glory to God,
Taken

face2face · May 19, 2024

Taken said:
It is clever for you to make an erroneous assumption and declare my position is almost accomplished.

It's a fair assessment of where you find yourself in this discussion.

F2F

face2face · May 19, 2024

Taken said:
God does not counsel with His Angels…
~~“Let us make man in our image”~~ ….No, as you suggest.

“Us” in proper context is the WHOLE of God, Creator and Maker introduced in the beginning of Scripture Revealed for manKIND…

Us is the manifestation of Who God is as revealed through His Mighty Ones i.e Angels...later at the coming of Christ His Saints.

Taken said:
Gen 1:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said…

You should have continued learning MORE knowledge little by little other introductory Names, Titles, Descriptions of:
the ] ONE without Beginning or Ending…
Lord ...Son, Jesus, Word
God …Father
Almighty…Christ

Isa 45:
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God knows ALL things.

God cannot lie, so no, God does not "know" evil by experience, its what makes Him Holy and Righteous.

You know this to be true.

F2F

face2face · May 19, 2024

Taken said:
I do not turn to babes to seek Gods Spiritual Understanding… Your “help” was neither requested or necessary.

Needless to say its offered.

face2face · May 19, 2024

Taken said:
God’s Word reveals the origin of A and Multiple “holy” angels who fell from Faith and Gods Grace, Forfeiting their description of “holiness” and their “first estate”.

Seems you are of the opinion fallen angels do not exist and a detriment unto yourself.

I am not subject to your consequences for your beliefs or choices.

Glory to God,
Taken

I take this as "I am unable to provide any evidence to my belief in fallen angels" to which, I reply, if you are unable to support your beliefs how can you prove them?

We have no point of reference for truth.

Your opinion against the Word of God.

F2F

face2face · May 19, 2024

Taken said:
Your error.

2 Pet 2:
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Okay,

Can you provide the context to which 2 Peter 2 speaks? You force the assumption its Divine Angels but it doesn't say that!

Can you explain HOW this evil power, which you believe is divine can still exercise evil when they are reserved in everlasting chains?

Like the Job reference, it seems again you have powerless beings.

Taken said:
I suspect you fail to comprehend DEATH, thus fail to understand HOW manKIND and spirit angels can EXPERIENCE DEATH, yet while they live.

Glory to God,
Taken

But Jesus said angels do not die. (Luke 20:36).

Therefore these messengers (Angelos) must be human sinners as they are reserved for judgement (ie. Life or Death!)

F2F

BTW - Can you think of an OT account which this is likely speaking about?

face2face · May 19, 2024

2 Peter 2:4 leads to another reality which the Scripture holds:

All existence in Scripture is bodily existence. There is no Scriptural evidence for asserting bodies can be dissolved into some ethereal wafting spirit.

F2F

Jack · May 20, 2024

face2face said:
I'd be interested in others views on this?

Can you show me where this is taught in the Bible - God creating an evil being with His Divine Nature?

F2F

God created everybody KNOWING who would burn in Hell forever. God knows everything.

Taken · May 20, 2024

face2face said:
It's a fair assessment of where you find yourself in this discussion.

F2F

Yet … your presumed “fair” assessment is irrelevant, regarding me.

I stand confidant In Gods “just” assessment, regarding me.

Taken · May 20, 2024

face2face said:
Us is the manifestation of Who God is as revealed through His Mighty Ones i.e Angels...later at the coming of Christ His Saints.

God cannot lie, so no, God does not "know" evil by experience, its what makes Him Holy and Righteous.

You know this to be true.

F2F

Twisting the “facts” and “implying” those were “facts”, “I” expressed, IS deception on your part…

GASLIGHTER!

Taken · May 20, 2024

face2face said:
Needless to say its offered.

Needless to say, a rejected “offering” is “moot”.

Taken · May 20, 2024

face2face said:
Okay,

Can you provide the context to which 2 Peter 2 speaks?

Express Context “of sinful Angels” is before your eyes.

Not my job to Understand “FOR” you.

You force the assumption its Divine Angels but it doesn't say that!

You make a False claim. I nor scripture identified “sinful Angels” as “divine angels”.

I already addressed Holy Angels have Freewill to make choices according to their “own will”…(Freewill). And Holy Angels WHO freely choose to SIN AGAINST GOD, “FORFEIT” their “holiness”.

Not my job to “Understand” “FOR YOU”.

Can you explain HOW this evil power, which you believe is divine can still exercise evil when they are reserved in everlasting chains?

No, I can NOT EXPLAIN “YOUR” gaslighting claims.

Like the Job reference, it seems again you have powerless beings.

Obviously…you are confused…
Extra Terrestrial beings called Celestial beings, ARE Angels.
* They were Created “HOLY”…
* Terrestrial beings were Created “very good”.
* Angels can FALL FROM their holiness.
* Angels CAN have their “POWER” “oppressed”.
* Angels CAN have their “POWER” “maintained”.
* You SHOULD KNOW, human persons, ARE Terrestrials, and OCCUPY the Face of the Earth…NOT the depths of Hell.
* Angels “IN CHAINS”, “IN Hell”, should notify
You, that “THOSE” particular “Angels” and their “POWER” to affect, (influence) manKIND is “OPPRESSED”.
* You should “ALSO” have learned…numerous Angels “forfeited their holiness” and YET MAINTAIN their POWER, roam the Face of the Earth, and ABSOLUTELY DO “influence” persons whose “estate” IS ON THE Face of the Earth.

But Jesus said angels do not die. (Luke 20:36).

Correct. And Already observed, you do not comprehend the MEANING of “DEATH”.

Therefore these messengers (Angelos) must be human sinners as they are reserved for judgement (ie. Life or Death!)

Your “THEREFORE”…is your OWN False conclusion.

DEATH…is the secession of Mortal Life.
DEATH…is the separation of Life from God.

Mortal men are naturally born…
At BIRTH, Gods IS “with” them.
At BIRTH, “they” ARE NOT “with God”.
During their “natural life span” they CAN FREELY CHOOSE Gods Offering to BE “WITH” God…..or REJECT taking His Offering, and CHOOSE to “remain” WITHOUT Him…”SPIRITUALLY DEAD”…Separated FROM God.

Or…they can ACCEPT Gods OFFERING (according to Gods Order and Way), and TAKE Gods Offering and BECOME, by the Power of God; MADE Forgiven, Cleansed, Covered, Justified, Sanctified, Soul Saved, Spirit Quickened, Righteous and PREPARED to RECEIVE a new “HOLY” body, according. To the Day, God Himself raises UP their Renewed ever lasting, “holy” body, saved ever lasting soul, quickened ever lasting spirit…unto Himself.

Angels…”WHO” maintained their “holiness”, continue into eternity to be “WITH” God and God “WITH” them.

Angels…”WHO” forfeited their “holiness”, SHALL “ultimately”… for eternity…continue their “alive existence”….SHALL Forfeit ALL of their POWER…SHALL BE:
SEPARATED FROM God…SEPARATED FROM Gods righteous people….SEPARATED FROM Gods Heaven(S)…SEPARATED FROM the Face of Gods Earth….
They SHALL Dwell forever POWERLESS in the Lake of Fire in the Pits of Hell.

God IS SPIRIT…SPIRITUAL SEPARATION FROM GOD…(terrestrial man or celestial angel)…IS SPIRITUAL DEATH!

Taken · May 20, 2024

face2face said:
I take this as "I am unable to provide any evidence to my belief in fallen angels"

You presenting yourself as a Christian without the basic elementary knowledge regarding Christianity…is foolishness to think yourself prepared for a spiritual conversation.

You were given Scriptural “evidence”…and rejected it. That is accountable to you, not me. Not my job to convince you or understand for you.

Do you believe this is...

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